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	<title>Comments on: Toward a new self-definition for open source</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/</link>
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		<title>By: Eddy</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-168682</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 15:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-168682</guid>
		<description>I found this post just checking out what folks are saying about &quot;yaks&quot;. At first I thought it was just another &quot;yak shaving&quot; post. Somehow reading the first few paragraphs hooked me. I am not a programmer, just a simple yak rancher. Still I was fascinated by the political point of view. I ended up following most of the comments. Thanks for a great post and somehow broadening my thoughts on software and politics!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this post just checking out what folks are saying about &#8220;yaks&#8221;. At first I thought it was just another &#8220;yak shaving&#8221; post. Somehow reading the first few paragraphs hooked me. I am not a programmer, just a simple yak rancher. Still I was fascinated by the political point of view. I ended up following most of the comments. Thanks for a great post and somehow broadening my thoughts on software and politics!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Olsen</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-168620</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Olsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 20:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-168620</guid>
		<description>Love the crossover between political thought and how it applies to the new evolution of open-source technology. Tremendously insightful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the crossover between political thought and how it applies to the new evolution of open-source technology. Tremendously insightful!</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Hellmann</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-131708</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Hellmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-131708</guid>
		<description>Nicely said.  You might find &quot;The Success of Open Source&quot; by Steven Weber an interesting read.  It&#039;s a few years old, but touches on quite a bit of history and some of the motivations for participants in a few of the larger OSS projects.  He also does some analysis of the difference in culture between BSD and GPL licensed projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely said.  You might find &#8220;The Success of Open Source&#8221; by Steven Weber an interesting read.  It&#8217;s a few years old, but touches on quite a bit of history and some of the motivations for participants in a few of the larger OSS projects.  He also does some analysis of the difference in culture between BSD and GPL licensed projects.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon -jj Behrens</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-130544</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon -jj Behrens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-130544</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Ian.  It&#039;s nice to hear introspectives on FOSS again.  I miss those.  Last year, I posted http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2008/02/hybrid-world-of-open-and-closed-source.html which is similar in nature to your post, and there wasn&#039;t as much of a response as I expected.

I&#039;m glad to see other people thinking deeply about these things.  Recently, I posted http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/open-source-closed-source-video-games.html in which I admitted that I&#039;m thankful for both open and closed source video games.  I still wonder if that applies to the entire software world.  Part of me thinks it does, but the little Stallman who sits on my shoulder keeps calling me a sellout ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Ian.  It&#8217;s nice to hear introspectives on FOSS again.  I miss those.  Last year, I posted <a href="http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2008/02/hybrid-world-of-open-and-closed-source.html" rel="nofollow">http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2008/02/hybrid-world-of-open-and-closed-source.html</a> which is similar in nature to your post, and there wasn&#8217;t as much of a response as I expected.</p>

<p>I&#8217;m glad to see other people thinking deeply about these things.  Recently, I posted <a href="http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/open-source-closed-source-video-games.html" rel="nofollow">http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/open-source-closed-source-video-games.html</a> in which I admitted that I&#8217;m thankful for both open and closed source video games.  I still wonder if that applies to the entire software world.  Part of me thinks it does, but the little Stallman who sits on my shoulder keeps calling me a sellout ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Ramm</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-130446</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Ramm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-130446</guid>
		<description>On the subject of anarchism, capitalism, and geek culture, I always recommend Ursila K LeGuin&#039;s fantastic sci-fi novel &quot;The Dispossessed.&quot;   It presents a picture of one possible anarchist society, and contrasts it with something much more like american capitalism.   The subtitle is &quot;an ambiguous dystopia&quot; and it&#039;s not clear which culture is supposed to be the dystopia from the title.  But what&#039;s appropriate to this discussion is that the anarchy in the book is pretty much presented as a stand-alone society, which is defined positively, not by what it stands against. 

I think the experience of open source developers shows that some of the premises of LeGuin&#039;s book aren&#039;t totally valid, but it&#039;s interesting how much of the contrast between the two worlds in the book is reflected in the contrast between the open source and commercial software communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of anarchism, capitalism, and geek culture, I always recommend Ursila K LeGuin&#8217;s fantastic sci-fi novel &#8220;The Dispossessed.&#8221;   It presents a picture of one possible anarchist society, and contrasts it with something much more like american capitalism.   The subtitle is &#8220;an ambiguous dystopia&#8221; and it&#8217;s not clear which culture is supposed to be the dystopia from the title.  But what&#8217;s appropriate to this discussion is that the anarchy in the book is pretty much presented as a stand-alone society, which is defined positively, not by what it stands against. </p>

<p>I think the experience of open source developers shows that some of the premises of LeGuin&#8217;s book aren&#8217;t totally valid, but it&#8217;s interesting how much of the contrast between the two worlds in the book is reflected in the contrast between the open source and commercial software communities.</p>
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		<title>By: sirpi anton</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-129974</link>
		<dc:creator>sirpi anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-129974</guid>
		<description>A relate post is &quot;We No Longer Need Power&quot; from Bruce Eckel and the comments there.  I must say I read you post yesterday but I was not able to get the deep
meaning of it.  Only skimming throw the text I got the impression that you 
feel that a change is going to occur but don&#039;t see the direction or how to 
focus people to go in some direction.

  I think we should learn the value of symbols, for example what is the meaning of a coin for society.  We depend very much of such concepts, imagine there were not possible way to guarantee secure economic transactions, or that legal status 
are not respected by people any more ...

 In order to change we should be able to appreciate the kernel features that are 
at the core of our society. Such change require a deep knowledge of the human 
nature, an appreciation that I think we will never get when a person is only a mascaraed to live in a tribe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A relate post is &#8220;We No Longer Need Power&#8221; from Bruce Eckel and the comments there.  I must say I read you post yesterday but I was not able to get the deep
meaning of it.  Only skimming throw the text I got the impression that you 
feel that a change is going to occur but don&#8217;t see the direction or how to 
focus people to go in some direction.</p>

<p>I think we should learn the value of symbols, for example what is the meaning of a coin for society.  We depend very much of such concepts, imagine there were not possible way to guarantee secure economic transactions, or that legal status 
are not respected by people any more &#8230;</p>

<p>In order to change we should be able to appreciate the kernel features that are 
at the core of our society. Such change require a deep knowledge of the human 
nature, an appreciation that I think we will never get when a person is only a mascaraed to live in a tribe.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-129467</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 03:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-129467</guid>
		<description>Thank you for his refreshing read! This is a jewel I will definately share with my fellow developers in Academia — who sometimes forget that sharing of knowledge is a good thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for his refreshing read! This is a jewel I will definately share with my fellow developers in Academia — who sometimes forget that sharing of knowledge is a good thing!</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-129456</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-129456</guid>
		<description>&quot;What I’m describing isn’t a fancy new website for professionals, but about people looking at their own work differently; the technology is not the hard part.&quot;

Yes. The open source style of organizing work, and of narrating work in a transparent way, is a key innovation that can and should spread to every profession.

I&#039;ve been trying for a long time to use the open source model to illustrate this point -- because it&#039;s the best real-world example of it. But it&#039;s hard because people both inside and outside the software world keep wanting to view the model through the lens of tribal warfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What I’m describing isn’t a fancy new website for professionals, but about people looking at their own work differently; the technology is not the hard part.&#8221;</p>

<p>Yes. The open source style of organizing work, and of narrating work in a transparent way, is a key innovation that can and should spread to every profession.</p>

<p>I&#8217;ve been trying for a long time to use the open source model to illustrate this point &#8212; because it&#8217;s the best real-world example of it. But it&#8217;s hard because people both inside and outside the software world keep wanting to view the model through the lens of tribal warfare.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrey Petrov</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-129235</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrey Petrov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-129235</guid>
		<description>Fantastic essay, thank you for posting!

I share your technocratic view of government, or any significantly large organization. People always overestimate how much control and power the leader(s) have, but if the leaders do a good job then they have very little (personal) power at all. All decisions are be reasoned, agreed upon, and executed, as if obeying the laws of physics. Like gears in a machine.

I view myself as an Open Source developer, a builder (or creator). I can&#039;t remember a time when I hesitated posting the source code to my creations, mostly because I didn&#039;t see the source code as the part that contains its value, but rather the idea it represents. I want the idea to flourish, even if someone else becomes responsible for it. 

Finally, I very much enjoyed the anecdote about the nursing mailing list. I&#039;ve heard similar impressions from nurses and their perspective on the battle between their opinion and that of the doctors. My impression is that the nursing movement is much more agile and progressive (very similar to the open source community), whereas MD&#039;s are a proprietary corpus of R&amp;D and reputation.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your code.

@shazow (a user of much of your code)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic essay, thank you for posting!</p>

<p>I share your technocratic view of government, or any significantly large organization. People always overestimate how much control and power the leader(s) have, but if the leaders do a good job then they have very little (personal) power at all. All decisions are be reasoned, agreed upon, and executed, as if obeying the laws of physics. Like gears in a machine.</p>

<p>I view myself as an Open Source developer, a builder (or creator). I can&#8217;t remember a time when I hesitated posting the source code to my creations, mostly because I didn&#8217;t see the source code as the part that contains its value, but rather the idea it represents. I want the idea to flourish, even if someone else becomes responsible for it. </p>

<p>Finally, I very much enjoyed the anecdote about the nursing mailing list. I&#8217;ve heard similar impressions from nurses and their perspective on the battle between their opinion and that of the doctors. My impression is that the nursing movement is much more agile and progressive (very similar to the open source community), whereas MD&#8217;s are a proprietary corpus of R&amp;D and reputation.</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your code.</p>

<p>@shazow (a user of much of your code)</p>
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		<title>By: Benny Daon</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/comment-page-1/#comment-129212</link>
		<dc:creator>Benny Daon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=125#comment-129212</guid>
		<description>Great post, thanks. I&#039;ve been thinking a lot about why we are worthy of emulation and I found two more reasons:

- Code is the best way to control a complex system. For an x86 server we use software code, for our government and judiciary system we use legal code, but they are really quite alike. Generalizing a bit, we are good at writing code to control complex systems. Right now, we&#039;re all focused on complex Turing machines, but that could change, especially as those non-Turing systems will have all their data accessible by Turing machines.

- Our craft is unique in that the cost of destruction is nil, so coding evolved to include refactoring as part of the development process. I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any other craft or profession out there where you are not ashamed of throwing away your old work, but it&#039;s really all right if your professions is focused on knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, thanks. I&#8217;ve been thinking a lot about why we are worthy of emulation and I found two more reasons:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Code is the best way to control a complex system. For an x86 server we use software code, for our government and judiciary system we use legal code, but they are really quite alike. Generalizing a bit, we are good at writing code to control complex systems. Right now, we&#8217;re all focused on complex Turing machines, but that could change, especially as those non-Turing systems will have all their data accessible by Turing machines.</p></li>
<li><p>Our craft is unique in that the cost of destruction is nil, so coding evolved to include refactoring as part of the development process. I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any other craft or profession out there where you are not ashamed of throwing away your old work, but it&#8217;s really all right if your professions is focused on knowledge.</p></li>
</ul>
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