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	<title>Comments on: Woonerf and Python</title>
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	<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nick Bauman</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-88065</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-88065</guid>
		<description>I spent a lot of my youth in Germany where this concept was employed with great regularity in big cities especially in Füssgänger Zone (Pedestrian Zones). I believe the photo you have there is also a Pedestrian Zone, not a normal city street. Is it?

Large systems (million SLOC plus) are often a reflection of adding many controls in an ad-hock fashion. Because removing the controls breaks an "intersection" in some component or subsystem, people build new "intersections" in the system, sometimes right on top of the old one. So these systems are typically 2-10x times the size they probably could/should be. Now the million+ SLOC system is really an obese 100k-500k SLOC system.

I long for the days of Python development where the toughest thing I'd run into would be a really nifty list comprehension. Where it was easier to write the test first than not to. Could you build really large systems with Python? I'm certain of it, even though I've never done it. Perhaps that's the best possible answer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent a lot of my youth in Germany where this concept was employed with great regularity in big cities especially in Füssgänger Zone (Pedestrian Zones). I believe the photo you have there is also a Pedestrian Zone, not a normal city street. Is it?</p>

<p>Large systems (million SLOC plus) are often a reflection of adding many controls in an ad-hock fashion. Because removing the controls breaks an &#8220;intersection&#8221; in some component or subsystem, people build new &#8220;intersections&#8221; in the system, sometimes right on top of the old one. So these systems are typically 2-10x times the size they probably could/should be. Now the million+ SLOC system is really an obese 100k-500k SLOC system.</p>

<p>I long for the days of Python development where the toughest thing I&#8217;d run into would be a really nifty list comprehension. Where it was easier to write the test first than not to. Could you build really large systems with Python? I&#8217;m certain of it, even though I&#8217;ve never done it. Perhaps that&#8217;s the best possible answer!</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Meyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-75193</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-75193</guid>
		<description>At the risk of stretching the analogy too far, it seems like it fits quite well: even in a large system, woonerf works within manageable-sized chunks of the system (neighborhoods), but at a certain point the interfaces between those neighborhoods (large highways) require stricter rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of stretching the analogy too far, it seems like it fits quite well: even in a large system, woonerf works within manageable-sized chunks of the system (neighborhoods), but at a certain point the interfaces between those neighborhoods (large highways) require stricter rules.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-75110</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-75110</guid>
		<description>See, this is why I read your blog.

On woonerf (itself a woonerful word): I wonder whether my urban neighborhood would be better without all the STOP signs, but with enforced crosswalks.  I think a problem we have that other places don't is that a lot of our traffic is out-of-town commuters, who don't have any attachment to our community, and whose cars I will key the next time they stop in the crosswalk while I'm pushing a stroller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, this is why I read your blog.</p>

<p>On woonerf (itself a woonerful word): I wonder whether my urban neighborhood would be better without all the STOP signs, but with enforced crosswalks.  I think a problem we have that other places don&#8217;t is that a lot of our traffic is out-of-town commuters, who don&#8217;t have any attachment to our community, and whose cars I will key the next time they stop in the crosswalk while I&#8217;m pushing a stroller.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Ho</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-74920</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Ho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-74920</guid>
		<description>Being formerly a Java programmer and now a working with Python, I agree that Python programmers are more open to negotiation regarding design decisions whereas Java programmers tend to following the rules that they have adopted very rigidly. However, I am not sure I like the Woonerfs example the best because in some cases it could really be chaos, like in the india video above, and as I experienced in GuangZhou, China. Nonetheless, thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being formerly a Java programmer and now a working with Python, I agree that Python programmers are more open to negotiation regarding design decisions whereas Java programmers tend to following the rules that they have adopted very rigidly. However, I am not sure I like the Woonerfs example the best because in some cases it could really be chaos, like in the india video above, and as I experienced in GuangZhou, China. Nonetheless, thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Grossman</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72998</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Grossman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72998</guid>
		<description>Love it.  There's probably also some parallel to be drawn between Woonerfs and agile / XP process.  BTW, my favorite woonerf here in the US is Commercial Street along the waterfront in Provincetown, MA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love it.  There&#8217;s probably also some parallel to be drawn between Woonerfs and agile / XP process.  BTW, my favorite woonerf here in the US is Commercial Street along the waterfront in Provincetown, MA.</p>
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		<title>By: eelcoh</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72339</link>
		<dc:creator>eelcoh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72339</guid>
		<description>In your last paragraph you doubt whether a woonerf would be good for big cities. Well, they are quite popular in the big cities in Holland, maybe even more than in the small towns. You'll find them being surrounded by larger roads and big streets, but the woonerf layouts themselves are quiet and pedestrian friendly.

I would not know how that would help your analogy though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your last paragraph you doubt whether a woonerf would be good for big cities. Well, they are quite popular in the big cities in Holland, maybe even more than in the small towns. You&#8217;ll find them being surrounded by larger roads and big streets, but the woonerf layouts themselves are quiet and pedestrian friendly.</p>

<p>I would not know how that would help your analogy though.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72229</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72229</guid>
		<description>If one wants to see an extreme Woonerf in action, see this Youtube video of a traffic intersection in India. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy_7sOoM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one wants to see an extreme Woonerf in action, see this Youtube video of a traffic intersection in India. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy&#95;7sOoM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy_7sOoM</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sean McGrath</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72224</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72224</guid>
		<description>Ian,

I wrote about the same ideas a while back here (http://www.itworld.com/nls_ebiznaked050426). I did not know the Dutch name at the time : woonerf. I like it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,</p>

<p>I wrote about the same ideas a while back here (http://www.itworld.com/nls_ebiznaked050426). I did not know the Dutch name at the time : woonerf. I like it!</p>
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		<title>By: eric casteleijn</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72187</link>
		<dc:creator>eric casteleijn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72187</guid>
		<description>Very interesting analogy. Perhaps it was not a mere accident that Python was developed by a Dutch person. Negotiation and taking personal responsibility do seem central to our culture (which often tends to devolve into pointing out exactly where others fail to take this responsibility, but I digress.)  See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting analogy. Perhaps it was not a mere accident that Python was developed by a Dutch person. Negotiation and taking personal responsibility do seem central to our culture (which often tends to devolve into pointing out exactly where others fail to take this responsibility, but I digress.)  See also: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder&#95;Model" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model</a></p>
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