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	<title>Comments on: Woonerf and Python</title>
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	<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/</link>
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		<title>By: Nick Bauman</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-88065</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-88065</guid>
		<description>I spent a lot of my youth in Germany where this concept was employed with great regularity in big cities especially in Füssgänger Zone (Pedestrian Zones). I believe the photo you have there is also a Pedestrian Zone, not a normal city street. Is it?

Large systems (million SLOC plus) are often a reflection of adding many controls in an ad-hock fashion. Because removing the controls breaks an &quot;intersection&quot; in some component or subsystem, people build new &quot;intersections&quot; in the system, sometimes right on top of the old one. So these systems are typically 2-10x times the size they probably could/should be. Now the million+ SLOC system is really an obese 100k-500k SLOC system.

I long for the days of Python development where the toughest thing I&#039;d run into would be a really nifty list comprehension. Where it was easier to write the test first than not to. Could you build really large systems with Python? I&#039;m certain of it, even though I&#039;ve never done it. Perhaps that&#039;s the best possible answer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent a lot of my youth in Germany where this concept was employed with great regularity in big cities especially in Füssgänger Zone (Pedestrian Zones). I believe the photo you have there is also a Pedestrian Zone, not a normal city street. Is it?</p>

<p>Large systems (million SLOC plus) are often a reflection of adding many controls in an ad-hock fashion. Because removing the controls breaks an &#8220;intersection&#8221; in some component or subsystem, people build new &#8220;intersections&#8221; in the system, sometimes right on top of the old one. So these systems are typically 2-10x times the size they probably could/should be. Now the million+ SLOC system is really an obese 100k-500k SLOC system.</p>

<p>I long for the days of Python development where the toughest thing I&#8217;d run into would be a really nifty list comprehension. Where it was easier to write the test first than not to. Could you build really large systems with Python? I&#8217;m certain of it, even though I&#8217;ve never done it. Perhaps that&#8217;s the best possible answer!</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Meyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-75193</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-75193</guid>
		<description>At the risk of stretching the analogy too far, it seems like it fits quite well: even in a large system, woonerf works within manageable-sized chunks of the system (neighborhoods), but at a certain point the interfaces between those neighborhoods (large highways) require stricter rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of stretching the analogy too far, it seems like it fits quite well: even in a large system, woonerf works within manageable-sized chunks of the system (neighborhoods), but at a certain point the interfaces between those neighborhoods (large highways) require stricter rules.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-75110</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-75110</guid>
		<description>See, this is why I read your blog.

On woonerf (itself a woonerful word): I wonder whether my urban neighborhood would be better without all the STOP signs, but with enforced crosswalks.  I think a problem we have that other places don&#039;t is that a lot of our traffic is out-of-town commuters, who don&#039;t have any attachment to our community, and whose cars I will key the next time they stop in the crosswalk while I&#039;m pushing a stroller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, this is why I read your blog.</p>

<p>On woonerf (itself a woonerful word): I wonder whether my urban neighborhood would be better without all the STOP signs, but with enforced crosswalks.  I think a problem we have that other places don&#8217;t is that a lot of our traffic is out-of-town commuters, who don&#8217;t have any attachment to our community, and whose cars I will key the next time they stop in the crosswalk while I&#8217;m pushing a stroller.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Ho</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-74920</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Ho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-74920</guid>
		<description>Being formerly a Java programmer and now a working with Python, I agree that Python programmers are more open to negotiation regarding design decisions whereas Java programmers tend to following the rules that they have adopted very rigidly. However, I am not sure I like the Woonerfs example the best because in some cases it could really be chaos, like in the india video above, and as I experienced in GuangZhou, China. Nonetheless, thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being formerly a Java programmer and now a working with Python, I agree that Python programmers are more open to negotiation regarding design decisions whereas Java programmers tend to following the rules that they have adopted very rigidly. However, I am not sure I like the Woonerfs example the best because in some cases it could really be chaos, like in the india video above, and as I experienced in GuangZhou, China. Nonetheless, thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Grossman</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72998</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Grossman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72998</guid>
		<description>Love it.  There&#039;s probably also some parallel to be drawn between Woonerfs and agile / XP process.  BTW, my favorite woonerf here in the US is Commercial Street along the waterfront in Provincetown, MA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love it.  There&#8217;s probably also some parallel to be drawn between Woonerfs and agile / XP process.  BTW, my favorite woonerf here in the US is Commercial Street along the waterfront in Provincetown, MA.</p>
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		<title>By: eelcoh</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72339</link>
		<dc:creator>eelcoh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72339</guid>
		<description>In your last paragraph you doubt whether a woonerf would be good for big cities. Well, they are quite popular in the big cities in Holland, maybe even more than in the small towns. You&#039;ll find them being surrounded by larger roads and big streets, but the woonerf layouts themselves are quiet and pedestrian friendly.

I would not know how that would help your analogy though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your last paragraph you doubt whether a woonerf would be good for big cities. Well, they are quite popular in the big cities in Holland, maybe even more than in the small towns. You&#8217;ll find them being surrounded by larger roads and big streets, but the woonerf layouts themselves are quiet and pedestrian friendly.</p>

<p>I would not know how that would help your analogy though.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72229</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72229</guid>
		<description>If one wants to see an extreme Woonerf in action, see this Youtube video of a traffic intersection in India. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy_7sOoM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one wants to see an extreme Woonerf in action, see this Youtube video of a traffic intersection in India. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy&#95;7sOoM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy_7sOoM</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sean McGrath</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72224</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72224</guid>
		<description>Ian,

I wrote about the same ideas a while back here (http://www.itworld.com/nls_ebiznaked050426). I did not know the Dutch name at the time : woonerf. I like it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,</p>

<p>I wrote about the same ideas a while back here (<a href="http://www.itworld.com/nls&#95;ebiznaked050426" rel="nofollow">http://www.itworld.com/nls_ebiznaked050426</a>). I did not know the Dutch name at the time : woonerf. I like it!</p>
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		<title>By: eric casteleijn</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/01/16/woonerf-and-python/comment-page-1/#comment-72187</link>
		<dc:creator>eric casteleijn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/?p=109#comment-72187</guid>
		<description>Very interesting analogy. Perhaps it was not a mere accident that Python was developed by a Dutch person. Negotiation and taking personal responsibility do seem central to our culture (which often tends to devolve into pointing out exactly where others fail to take this responsibility, but I digress.)  See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting analogy. Perhaps it was not a mere accident that Python was developed by a Dutch person. Negotiation and taking personal responsibility do seem central to our culture (which often tends to devolve into pointing out exactly where others fail to take this responsibility, but I digress.)  See also: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder&#95;Model" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model</a></p>
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