Comments on: “Something Must Be Done” http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/ Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:34:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.3 By: dehande http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-20999 dehande Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:23:17 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-20999 Please adjust your RSS or tags so that this doesn’t show up on planetpython.org. Please adjust your RSS or tags so that this doesn’t show up on planetpython.org.

]]> By: Joe Moore http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17666 Joe Moore Sat, 31 May 2008 06:06:38 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17666 The touchy feely liberalism of NPR likes to take the easy route in such complex issues as gun control. Some of the posts here do as well ;). For instance, I can assume that the murder rate and violent crime are tied to the level of access that the mentally unstable and poor have to firearms, and I would be right! The problem is that this doesn't look critically at what constitutes the murder rate, violent crime, and mental instability. Violent crime is perpetrated most often by a poor person with a gun. Violent crime is not, as in the case of the Ford Pinto, a business making the decision that recalling a car with a faulty gas tank is less cost effective than dealing with lawsuits that occur due to preventable deaths. Furthermore, why should a murderous law enforcement agency(see Sean Bell case among others) have access to firearms while I do not? The right to bear arms means equal access. Also, I'm not a conservative. The touchy feely liberalism of NPR likes to take the easy route in such complex issues as gun control. Some of the posts here do as well ;). For instance, I can assume that the murder rate and violent crime are tied to the level of access that the mentally unstable and poor have to firearms, and I would be right! The problem is that this doesn’t look critically at what constitutes the murder rate, violent crime, and mental instability. Violent crime is perpetrated most often by a poor person with a gun. Violent crime is not, as in the case of the Ford Pinto, a business making the decision that recalling a car with a faulty gas tank is less cost effective than dealing with lawsuits that occur due to preventable deaths. Furthermore, why should a murderous law enforcement agency(see Sean Bell case among others) have access to firearms while I do not? The right to bear arms means equal access.

Also, I’m not a conservative.

]]> By: Dan Phiffer http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17657 Dan Phiffer Fri, 30 May 2008 18:43:15 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17657 It's interesting that you included This American Life as an example. Here's [an excerpt of an interview with Ira Glass](http://blog.phiffer.org/post/19567157/the-sound-of-young-america-interviews-ira-glass) where he's taken to task a bit on the narrowness of his subject matter. Here's the [full interview](http://www.maximumfun.org/blog/2007/11/podcast-ira-glass-of-this-american-life.html). It’s interesting that you included This American Life as an example. Here’s an excerpt of an interview with Ira Glass where he’s taken to task a bit on the narrowness of his subject matter. Here’s the full interview.

]]> By: Malthe@mac.com http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17166 Malthe@mac.com Tue, 06 May 2008 16:38:35 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17166 People who commit violence have social and/or mental problems. Easy access to lethal weapons increases the risk that these people commit violence with a lethal outcome. End of story. People who commit violence have social and/or mental problems. Easy access to lethal weapons increases the risk that these people commit violence with a lethal outcome. End of story.

]]> By: Dave http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17153 Dave Tue, 06 May 2008 12:51:23 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17153 Jack: http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm You are correct, suicide rate by gun in the US is high. However, homicide rate is also high: 4 in 100,000 in the US, under 1 in 100,000 everywhere else. Regarding the original topic, it's the "monkeysphere" in action again. We find it very hard to care about people not in our own social network. "Society" in terms of cities and nations is not one cohesive community, it's thousands of them crammed in together. Jack:

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

You are correct, suicide rate by gun in the US is high.

However, homicide rate is also high: 4 in 100,000 in the US, under 1 in 100,000 everywhere else.

Regarding the original topic, it’s the “monkeysphere” in action again. We find it very hard to care about people not in our own social network. “Society” in terms of cities and nations is not one cohesive community, it’s thousands of them crammed in together.

]]> By: Jack Diederich http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17135 Jack Diederich Tue, 06 May 2008 04:25:33 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17135 An aside about gun stats: don't trust them. In Anglo countries there is little difference in violent crime despite widely varying levels of gun control though some specific categories vary (the UK has a high home invasion rate, the US has a higher murder rate). Gun stats that cite "children" include 19 year old "children" to capture young males at their violent best. Be suspicious of the phrase "gun deaths" because it includes suicide; the US rate for "gun deaths" is quite high because it includes suicide-by-gun. It shouldn't be a surprise that the US suicide rate is nestled in between cold Canada and sunny Australia - men [and they are overwhelmingly men] find a way. An aside about gun stats: don’t trust them. In Anglo countries there is little difference in violent crime despite widely varying levels of gun control though some specific categories vary (the UK has a high home invasion rate, the US has a higher murder rate). Gun stats that cite “children” include 19 year old “children” to capture young males at their violent best. Be suspicious of the phrase “gun deaths” because it includes suicide; the US rate for “gun deaths” is quite high because it includes suicide-by-gun. It shouldn’t be a surprise that the US suicide rate is nestled in between cold Canada and sunny Australia - men [and they are overwhelmingly men] find a way.

]]> By: Jack Diederich http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17134 Jack Diederich Tue, 06 May 2008 04:15:54 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17134 There is a base level of criminality and violence in the human condition but some cultures make it worse. The black economist Thomas Sowell blames such "honor" cultures in America on the Scotch-Irish who were largely Southerners in his book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594030863/qid=1117461982/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-0132618-5936749?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" rel="nofollow">Black Rednecks and White Liberals</a> (that isn't a recommendation, I haven't read it). There are many causes of poverty but all honor cultures are poor or would be if they weren't sitting on oil wells. Honor subcultures in otherwise Western/protestant countries (e.g. gangs and the mafia) are also poor and violent. I can't find a link but gangs and the mafia (and the KKK!) are known as "tournament" economies. Very few of the members make much money and the lowest members participate at great risk to themselves. They take the risk because the few top dogs make decent cash and more importantly are feted by everyone below them. All the participants delude themselves that they will make it to the top (see also: waiters who are going to be rock stars/models/writers). It is easy to see how tournament economies thrive in honor cultures. The easiest way to win is not to play. People who don't know criminals generally don't get shot, stabbed, or raped. The statistics are true: people who get shot are likely to get shot by someone they know (and possibly with their own gun!) but what that stat leaves out is that the shooter already has a criminal record. If you are a 25 year old male without a criminal record the chances of you ever having one are vanishingly close to zero. All of the above is why this isn't a problem for you, me, and "we." We're not playing that game. For the same reason the government can't really solve the problem: culture is local and pervasive. The government can stop exacerbating the problem though, and has; the housing projects which concentrated violent honor/tournament cultures have mostly been torn down. There is a base level of criminality and violence in the human condition but some cultures make it worse. The black economist Thomas Sowell blames such “honor” cultures in America on the Scotch-Irish who were largely Southerners in his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals (that isn’t a recommendation, I haven’t read it). There are many causes of poverty but all honor cultures are poor or would be if they weren’t sitting on oil wells. Honor subcultures in otherwise Western/protestant countries (e.g. gangs and the mafia) are also poor and violent. I can’t find a link but gangs and the mafia (and the KKK!) are known as “tournament” economies. Very few of the members make much money and the lowest members participate at great risk to themselves. They take the risk because the few top dogs make decent cash and more importantly are feted by everyone below them. All the participants delude themselves that they will make it to the top (see also: waiters who are going to be rock stars/models/writers). It is easy to see how tournament economies thrive in honor cultures.

The easiest way to win is not to play. People who don’t know criminals generally don’t get shot, stabbed, or raped. The statistics are true: people who get shot are likely to get shot by someone they know (and possibly with their own gun!) but what that stat leaves out is that the shooter already has a criminal record. If you are a 25 year old male without a criminal record the chances of you ever having one are vanishingly close to zero.

All of the above is why this isn’t a problem for you, me, and “we.” We’re not playing that game. For the same reason the government can’t really solve the problem: culture is local and pervasive. The government can stop exacerbating the problem though, and has; the housing projects which concentrated violent honor/tournament cultures have mostly been torn down.

]]> By: Brandon Craig Rhodes http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17133 Brandon Craig Rhodes Tue, 06 May 2008 04:14:43 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17133 Ian, the major problem, I think, with what we might call the "NPR approach" towards problems of violence is the implicit assumption that killing a man for a minor offense is aberrant, and therefore that we have to conjure up some great malignant force that must have produced it. Thus all of the bogeys that have been trotted out over the years, from blaming the evils inherent in private property (Marx) to blaming the inability of teenage boys to have sex whenever they want (Carl Sagan in <i>Cosmos</i>, which I read as a teenage boy, and, boy, was I a fan). But, in fact, retaliating with overwhelming force against even perceived slights is the normal way that males of our species defend territory — so, NPR should be looking and digging for explanations of you and your friends and why you behave non-violently, and ask how on earth people like you came about through world history, rather than wringing their hands over perfectly reasonable primate behavior among gun-toting club-goers. You have chosen a perfect time to ask this question: just in the last few weeks, two superb articles have come out addressing this very issue. I suggest that you start with Jared Diamond's <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/21/080421fa_fact_diamond?currentPage=all" rel="nofollow">recent article in the New Yorker</a>, and move on from there to the excellent <a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=14947&R=13A16D2F3" rel="nofollow">review in the Weekly Standard</a> (yes, I know, they are conservatives; try reading the article anyway!) about Stanley Kurtz's recent book about what we might call conflict problem-solving skills on the local level in the Middle East. Both of them use plenty of examples which I think you will find deeply illuminate the situations they were addressing on NPR. Let me know what you think. Ian, the major problem, I think, with what we might call the “NPR approach” towards problems of violence is the implicit assumption that killing a man for a minor offense is aberrant, and therefore that we have to conjure up some great malignant force that must have produced it. Thus all of the bogeys that have been trotted out over the years, from blaming the evils inherent in private property (Marx) to blaming the inability of teenage boys to have sex whenever they want (Carl Sagan in Cosmos, which I read as a teenage boy, and, boy, was I a fan).

But, in fact, retaliating with overwhelming force against even perceived slights is the normal way that males of our species defend territory — so, NPR should be looking and digging for explanations of you and your friends and why you behave non-violently, and ask how on earth people like you came about through world history, rather than wringing their hands over perfectly reasonable primate behavior among gun-toting club-goers.

You have chosen a perfect time to ask this question: just in the last few weeks, two superb articles have come out addressing this very issue. I suggest that you start with Jared Diamond’s recent article in the New Yorker, and move on from there to the excellent review in the Weekly Standard (yes, I know, they are conservatives; try reading the article anyway!) about Stanley Kurtz’s recent book about what we might call conflict problem-solving skills on the local level in the Middle East.

Both of them use plenty of examples which I think you will find deeply illuminate the situations they were addressing on NPR. Let me know what you think.

]]> By: Sean Reifschneider http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17129 Sean Reifschneider Tue, 06 May 2008 01:23:36 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17129 I'm glad that "we" don't have a problem with this. Because otherwise it'd make volunteering to work on the network when we outsource it so much more exciting. Sean I’m glad that “we” don’t have a problem with this. Because otherwise it’d make volunteering to work on the network when we outsource it so much more exciting.

Sean

]]> By: richard http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17126 richard Tue, 06 May 2008 00:49:57 +0000 http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/05/04/something-must-be-done/#comment-17126 If they are poor how can they afford guns? If you are that poor other things are far more important to you. I know because I sit at the poverty threshold. Maybe they are a) Not poor b) Get the guns from elsewhere c) Save up to buy guns d) Guns are cheaper than food, or the cost of bills, if a gun cost me only AUD20 then I could afford it. If they are poor how can they afford guns? If you are that poor other things are far more important to you. I know because I sit at the poverty threshold.

Maybe they are a) Not poor b) Get the guns from elsewhere c) Save up to buy guns d) Guns are cheaper than food, or the cost of bills, if a gun cost me only AUD20 then I could afford it.

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