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	<title>Comments on: Environmental Theater</title>
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		<title>By: Ian Bicking</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-183941</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bicking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-183941</guid>
		<description>If ethanol producers didn&#039;t themselves use fossil fuels it might be an alternative, but they are not even self-sustaining.  It would be like saying meat is unenvironmental so we need to get people to eat more plants, then making sure there are more plants by grinding up cows and using them for fertilizer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If ethanol producers didn&#8217;t themselves use fossil fuels it might be an alternative, but they are not even self-sustaining.  It would be like saying meat is unenvironmental so we need to get people to eat more plants, then making sure there are more plants by grinding up cows and using them for fertilizer.</p>
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		<title>By: solar panel homes</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-183890</link>
		<dc:creator>solar panel homes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-183890</guid>
		<description>its sort of give and take..it makes sense that ethanol is not all &quot;green&quot; as deforestation happens along the way. just look at this as another alternative to fossil fuel which is depleting</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its sort of give and take..it makes sense that ethanol is not all &#8220;green&#8221; as deforestation happens along the way. just look at this as another alternative to fossil fuel which is depleting</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus Gardner</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-169973</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-169973</guid>
		<description>I think the problem is a lack of truth in all areas. I live in the UK and we frequently find that so called recycling, carried out by local authorities actually goes into land fill via some kind of backdoor policy.
The problem with the truth issue is that here in the Uk it inefitably leads to numerous levels of unnecessary management in quangos designed specifically to give jobs to government cronies.
I suppose you could say that over here the public is in a lose -d lose situation however it&#039;s approached.
As for other countries, the lack of effort to help emerging markets like China, take control of their emmissions and other polutants is laughably inadequate.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem is a lack of truth in all areas. I live in the UK and we frequently find that so called recycling, carried out by local authorities actually goes into land fill via some kind of backdoor policy.
The problem with the truth issue is that here in the Uk it inefitably leads to numerous levels of unnecessary management in quangos designed specifically to give jobs to government cronies.
I suppose you could say that over here the public is in a lose -d lose situation however it&#8217;s approached.
As for other countries, the lack of effort to help emerging markets like China, take control of their emmissions and other polutants is laughably inadequate.</p>
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		<title>By: Gay Bicking</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Gay Bicking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 03:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-136</guid>
		<description>I was so excited to see that I could click on politics to hear what you were thinking.  Unfortunately, son, you are STILL way over my head.  Oh, I get the numbers, but then all the comments are so technical.  I guess, I&#039;ll go back to reading &quot;Folktales from Ethiopia,&quot; my latest interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was so excited to see that I could click on politics to hear what you were thinking.  Unfortunately, son, you are STILL way over my head.  Oh, I get the numbers, but then all the comments are so technical.  I guess, I&#8217;ll go back to reading &#8220;Folktales from Ethiopia,&#8221; my latest interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Schneider</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 13:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-105</guid>
		<description>&quot;Correct, uranium is not “renewable” as such, but at least there’s enough of it to last us ~100 years, so we can figure out other clean energy sources in the meantime.&quot;
There&#039;s resources that will tell you that (&quot;easily&quot; accessible) uranium will only last around 50 - 60 years... but even if the 100 years projection is right, those calculations are still based on the CURRENT consumption of uranium. Ever read statistics about how little a percentage nuclear energy currently has on the primary energy mix? As little s 6%... if you would want to replace CO2-emitting power plants with nuclear ones you would have to triple or even quadruple the number of nuclear power plants worldwide (increasing consumption of power of countries like China not included in the calculation) that would mean that you&#039;d have to divide the timeframe in which uranium is still available by 3 or 4... even with your (very optimistic) 100 years estimate that would lead to 25 - 30 years. Everyone who paid attention in their economy lessons can project what will happen to uranium prices once there&#039;s a shortage, and that is just adding to the fact that uranium prices have sky-rocketed (and will continue to do so) in the last years. I wonder how much longer your &quot;nuclear energy is cheap&quot; theory can stand. Then again, when including the &quot;inofficial&quot; subsidies nuclear power has and still does receive that theory isn&#039;t really valid anyhow.

&quot;Handling that amount of nuclear waste is also a trivial task...&quot;
How would that be a trivial task? There&#039;s no terminal storage here in Germany because nobody can say if the proposed locations are really safe for the thousands of years that the waste still be highly radioactive. And of course no one wants to live next to one of those dumps, just as nobody wants to live next to a nuclear power plant.

And as for your &quot;nuclear power is safe enough&quot; statement, I suggest you visit the (huge) area that was contaminated by the Tschernobyl disaster in Ukraine and talk to the victims that are still alive (but most likely have cancer) about it. Just skimming through the (official) lists of malfunctions in nuclear power plants you can find on the net might prove to be somewhat enlightening as well (you wouldn&#039;t believe how many times things ALMOST went seriously wrong).

Renewables are here now, they aren&#039;t too expensive now and prices are dropping rapidly (unlike any other form of electric energy source). Even with a reduced decline of prices for renewable energy, they will have a &quot;break even&quot; with traditional energies within the next 5-10 years. If it weren&#039;t for the crap that the lobby and marketing machinery of the nuclear and oil industries feeds us (renewables = de-centralazation = no money to be made by conventional power companies) we might actually start using them on a big scale and solve both climate and price problems in a time-frame that is much shorter than that needed to build a couple of hundred new nuclear power plants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Correct, uranium is not “renewable” as such, but at least there’s enough of it to last us ~100 years, so we can figure out other clean energy sources in the meantime.&#8221;
There&#8217;s resources that will tell you that (&#8220;easily&#8221; accessible) uranium will only last around 50 &#8211; 60 years&#8230; but even if the 100 years projection is right, those calculations are still based on the CURRENT consumption of uranium. Ever read statistics about how little a percentage nuclear energy currently has on the primary energy mix? As little s 6%&#8230; if you would want to replace CO2-emitting power plants with nuclear ones you would have to triple or even quadruple the number of nuclear power plants worldwide (increasing consumption of power of countries like China not included in the calculation) that would mean that you&#8217;d have to divide the timeframe in which uranium is still available by 3 or 4&#8230; even with your (very optimistic) 100 years estimate that would lead to 25 &#8211; 30 years. Everyone who paid attention in their economy lessons can project what will happen to uranium prices once there&#8217;s a shortage, and that is just adding to the fact that uranium prices have sky-rocketed (and will continue to do so) in the last years. I wonder how much longer your &#8220;nuclear energy is cheap&#8221; theory can stand. Then again, when including the &#8220;inofficial&#8221; subsidies nuclear power has and still does receive that theory isn&#8217;t really valid anyhow.</p>

<p>&#8220;Handling that amount of nuclear waste is also a trivial task&#8230;&#8221;
How would that be a trivial task? There&#8217;s no terminal storage here in Germany because nobody can say if the proposed locations are really safe for the thousands of years that the waste still be highly radioactive. And of course no one wants to live next to one of those dumps, just as nobody wants to live next to a nuclear power plant.</p>

<p>And as for your &#8220;nuclear power is safe enough&#8221; statement, I suggest you visit the (huge) area that was contaminated by the Tschernobyl disaster in Ukraine and talk to the victims that are still alive (but most likely have cancer) about it. Just skimming through the (official) lists of malfunctions in nuclear power plants you can find on the net might prove to be somewhat enlightening as well (you wouldn&#8217;t believe how many times things ALMOST went seriously wrong).</p>

<p>Renewables are here now, they aren&#8217;t too expensive now and prices are dropping rapidly (unlike any other form of electric energy source). Even with a reduced decline of prices for renewable energy, they will have a &#8220;break even&#8221; with traditional energies within the next 5-10 years. If it weren&#8217;t for the crap that the lobby and marketing machinery of the nuclear and oil industries feeds us (renewables = de-centralazation = no money to be made by conventional power companies) we might actually start using them on a big scale and solve both climate and price problems in a time-frame that is much shorter than that needed to build a couple of hundred new nuclear power plants.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Miller</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>some quick thoughts:

regarding corn: corn production, in the U.S. anyway, is heavily subsidized, and as such is artificially inexpensive.  corn is a taxing crop.  it shouldn&#039;t be used for nearly as many food products as it is (high fructose corn syrup, anyone?), much less as a fuel source.  there&#039;s a reason why ethanol from corn is the only non-petroleum-based fuel source that bush ever mentions; certain folks he is sympathetic to stand to make a ton of money off of that solution.

i&#039;m not familiar with switchgrass, but that sounds like a promising possibility.  i also know that good ol&#039; marijuana (nee hemp) can produce a startlingly high amount of fuel per acre, and the byproduct of extracting the oil is a high-protein seed cake.  early Ford cars were powered by hemp fuels.  Henry Ford even made cars from hemp.  there&#039;s a famous photo of him taking a sledge-hammer to the trunk of a car made entirely from hemp plastic, see http://www.ashevillehempcompany.com/About_Hemp.html.  you can find an abundance of info on this by googling for &#039;hemp fuel&#039;; the most useful page i found with a quick search is here: http://www.masscann.org/hemp/

regarding &quot;energy theater&quot;.  i love the term, will start using (and propagating, hopefully) it immediately.  and yes, it&#039;s rampant.  real conservation, like security, is hard.  and complex.  just like the total cost of ownership of software is rarely indicated by the licensing fees alone, neither is the total energy cost of some &quot;green&quot; initiative measurable by the energy expended at the end-user level; you&#039;ve got to consider the whole picture.  consider organic produce... in general, it&#039;s a better environmental choice.  but when your apple came from new zealand, then is it a better choice than the inorganic produce from the valley only 100 miles away?  probably not, when you consider the total energy cost in getting it to you.

anyway, enough rambling... thanks for the fodder!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some quick thoughts:</p>

<p>regarding corn: corn production, in the U.S. anyway, is heavily subsidized, and as such is artificially inexpensive.  corn is a taxing crop.  it shouldn&#8217;t be used for nearly as many food products as it is (high fructose corn syrup, anyone?), much less as a fuel source.  there&#8217;s a reason why ethanol from corn is the only non-petroleum-based fuel source that bush ever mentions; certain folks he is sympathetic to stand to make a ton of money off of that solution.</p>

<p>i&#8217;m not familiar with switchgrass, but that sounds like a promising possibility.  i also know that good ol&#8217; marijuana (nee hemp) can produce a startlingly high amount of fuel per acre, and the byproduct of extracting the oil is a high-protein seed cake.  early Ford cars were powered by hemp fuels.  Henry Ford even made cars from hemp.  there&#8217;s a famous photo of him taking a sledge-hammer to the trunk of a car made entirely from hemp plastic, see <a href="http://www.ashevillehempcompany.com/About&#95;Hemp.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ashevillehempcompany.com/About_Hemp.html</a>.  you can find an abundance of info on this by googling for &#8216;hemp fuel&#8217;; the most useful page i found with a quick search is here: <a href="http://www.masscann.org/hemp/" rel="nofollow">http://www.masscann.org/hemp/</a></p>

<p>regarding &#8220;energy theater&#8221;.  i love the term, will start using (and propagating, hopefully) it immediately.  and yes, it&#8217;s rampant.  real conservation, like security, is hard.  and complex.  just like the total cost of ownership of software is rarely indicated by the licensing fees alone, neither is the total energy cost of some &#8220;green&#8221; initiative measurable by the energy expended at the end-user level; you&#8217;ve got to consider the whole picture.  consider organic produce&#8230; in general, it&#8217;s a better environmental choice.  but when your apple came from new zealand, then is it a better choice than the inorganic produce from the valley only 100 miles away?  probably not, when you consider the total energy cost in getting it to you.</p>

<p>anyway, enough rambling&#8230; thanks for the fodder!</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Bicking</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bicking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-46</guid>
		<description>Well, since I&#039;m kind of trying to coin a term, as an analog to &quot;security theater&quot;, global warming can&#039;t qualify as &quot;environmental theater&quot;.  The analog is a means to help the environment that looks useful but has no real benefit.  Global warming is a *problem* not a *solution*.

It&#039;s true that people can be rather melodramatic about our problems, environmental or otherwise.  But that&#039;s not what I was trying to talk about when using that term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, since I&#8217;m kind of trying to coin a term, as an analog to &#8220;security theater&#8221;, global warming can&#8217;t qualify as &#8220;environmental theater&#8221;.  The analog is a means to help the environment that looks useful but has no real benefit.  Global warming is a <em>problem</em> not a <em>solution</em>.</p>

<p>It&#8217;s true that people can be rather melodramatic about our problems, environmental or otherwise.  But that&#8217;s not what I was trying to talk about when using that term.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Boddie</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Boddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Nice to hear that global warming is &quot;environmental theater&quot;. Whether or not the planet gets warmer all by itself every now and again, there are huge challenges in dealing with the impact of climate change without even considering why it has come about: for example, &quot;follow the mammoths to higher ground&quot; doesn&#039;t cut it any more as a crisis management strategy. But we do have a responsibility to determine what kind of climate change is occurring and to what extent human activity is responsible, and if that gets a lot of publicity, then so be it. Ultimately, society in the developed world is going to need to make some fairly tough changes to its collective lifestyle - at a level of discomfort greater than that causing the squealing one usually hears as fuel prices in the US exceed some threshold which would be considered ridiculously low in Europe and other places - so I hardly think anyone is getting a raw deal being told about such stuff now, especially when the weight of scientific evidence does point to a human role in climate change, and when most people are now surely aware that there will be a struggle to meet their energy needs in future at current levels of consumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice to hear that global warming is &#8220;environmental theater&#8221;. Whether or not the planet gets warmer all by itself every now and again, there are huge challenges in dealing with the impact of climate change without even considering why it has come about: for example, &#8220;follow the mammoths to higher ground&#8221; doesn&#8217;t cut it any more as a crisis management strategy. But we do have a responsibility to determine what kind of climate change is occurring and to what extent human activity is responsible, and if that gets a lot of publicity, then so be it. Ultimately, society in the developed world is going to need to make some fairly tough changes to its collective lifestyle &#8211; at a level of discomfort greater than that causing the squealing one usually hears as fuel prices in the US exceed some threshold which would be considered ridiculously low in Europe and other places &#8211; so I hardly think anyone is getting a raw deal being told about such stuff now, especially when the weight of scientific evidence does point to a human role in climate change, and when most people are now surely aware that there will be a struggle to meet their energy needs in future at current levels of consumption.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Munn</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Another cost of biofuels, especially corn, is the amount of corn being produced that &lt;i&gt;won&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; be used for food. (Whether that&#039;s human consumption, or being fed to animals that are raised for milk or meat). To produce large amounts of biofuels, we would need to either find thousands of acres of new, prime farmland that&#039;s not currently being used (ha!), or else switch over current cornfields from food production to biofuels production. That means a lower supply of corn in the food industry, which means a higher price on everything that uses corn, whether it&#039;s beef (corn-fed beef, at least) or soda pop (which has corn syrup as its #1 ingredient).

I have no idea whether the increase in food prices has been taken into account in those EROI-just-above-1 figures you mention. But I would guess that it hasn&#039;t, because it&#039;s an economic cost, not an energy cost. It should be considered, though: anything that raises the price of food hits the poor much, much harder (proportionally) than the rich. What&#039;s the energy gain for that economic cost, and could that same energy gain be realized through other means with lesser costs? (Such as, for instance, replacing coal plants with nuclear reactors, as has already been mentioned).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another cost of biofuels, especially corn, is the amount of corn being produced that <i>won&#8217;t</i> be used for food. (Whether that&#8217;s human consumption, or being fed to animals that are raised for milk or meat). To produce large amounts of biofuels, we would need to either find thousands of acres of new, prime farmland that&#8217;s not currently being used (ha!), or else switch over current cornfields from food production to biofuels production. That means a lower supply of corn in the food industry, which means a higher price on everything that uses corn, whether it&#8217;s beef (corn-fed beef, at least) or soda pop (which has corn syrup as its #1 ingredient).</p>

<p>I have no idea whether the increase in food prices has been taken into account in those EROI-just-above-1 figures you mention. But I would guess that it hasn&#8217;t, because it&#8217;s an economic cost, not an energy cost. It should be considered, though: anything that raises the price of food hits the poor much, much harder (proportionally) than the rich. What&#8217;s the energy gain for that economic cost, and could that same energy gain be realized through other means with lesser costs? (Such as, for instance, replacing coal plants with nuclear reactors, as has already been mentioned).</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Boddie</title>
		<link>http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Boddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/02/environmental-theater/#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Alexander, I&#039;d like to see the figures behind the assertion that &quot;nuclear energy [...] has killed less people than any other energy form, wind/solar power included&quot;, especially if you consider indirect causes of death. Perhaps China has some pebble bed reactors running (Wikipedia claims only a single prototype), but it&#039;s not exactly contributing to the nuclear &quot;bottom line&quot; right now. Meanwhile, people in various places - Norway, even - are somewhat excited about Thorium, but there&#039;s always the issue of waste disposal.

Really, the sooner people can figure out viable generation from nuclear fusion (aside from solar generation, of course), the better, but the vested interests do seem to love pushing their non-solutions like biofuels, presumably because there&#039;s money to be made in appearing to be doing something for the environment whilst switching pet special interest groups from one form of subsidies to another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexander, I&#8217;d like to see the figures behind the assertion that &#8220;nuclear energy [...] has killed less people than any other energy form, wind/solar power included&#8221;, especially if you consider indirect causes of death. Perhaps China has some pebble bed reactors running (Wikipedia claims only a single prototype), but it&#8217;s not exactly contributing to the nuclear &#8220;bottom line&#8221; right now. Meanwhile, people in various places &#8211; Norway, even &#8211; are somewhat excited about Thorium, but there&#8217;s always the issue of waste disposal.</p>

<p>Really, the sooner people can figure out viable generation from nuclear fusion (aside from solar generation, of course), the better, but the vested interests do seem to love pushing their non-solutions like biofuels, presumably because there&#8217;s money to be made in appearing to be doing something for the environment whilst switching pet special interest groups from one form of subsidies to another.</p>
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